The importance of listening

Dr. Shirley J. Knowles, Chief Inclusion + Diversity Officer at Progress, recently sat down with Jason Lavender of Electives for a People Developing People interview.

During their conversation, Shirley shared her thoughts on:

• Why DEI work must be truly inclusive
• The importance of listening to understand
• How to create connections
• Why solutioning must be part of the process
• Persistence, even when things get tough

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Jason Lavender, Co-Founder + CEO @ Electives: Welcome, Shirley. To get things started, could you share your background and the path that brought you to your current role and company?

Dr. Shirley J. Knowles, Chief Inclusion + Diversity Officer @ Progress: Thank you for inviting me to talk about diversity, equity and inclusion.

Like many people, my journey has not been linear. My background is in communications with an undergraduate degree in Journalism. I have always appreciated learning more about people, asking them questions and really getting to the heart of an issue or topic that's important to them.

When I graduated, the newspaper and journalism industries were going up in flames, so I pivoted to education. Then I moved into corporate communications. I did PR, internal communication, social media - you name it - and I'd like to think I was somewhat successful there.

In May and June of 2020, after the murder of George Floyd, the President and CEO of my former company reached out looking for a leader who could advance diversity and inclusion in the organization. At first, my gut response was “no way,” because there's a lot to it. There are a lot of nuances, and it can be very subjective. You run into people who think DEI is a fluffy topic, a flavor of the day or unnecessary. Nevertheless, I became that company's first Diversity and Inclusion Officer. After that, I moved over to Progress where I am now the Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer.

When I graduated from Marquette University, I did not think this was what I would be doing for a living. But as I look back at parts of my career and the importance that I put on relationship building and connections, it’s clear this is where I was destined to be.

Jason: I love that. In each of my People Developing People interviews, my guest starts off with “My path is not really linear…” and I always think that's more interesting.

Let’s take a step back and consider the Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer role over the last five years. And let’s also look ahead to the next five years. What are you most excited about in terms of the evolution of the role and impact? And what are you most worried or scared about regarding the potential evolution of the role?

DEI is broader than many people realize.

Shirley: To do this job well, you must have thick skin. You're going to hear feedback from people who do not support the work, and that is just a fact of life. I don't let that get me down. I see it as an opportunity. And, I believe, that is how I've become successful in my role.

I'm still learning and growing in my role every day. I am not perfect in this role, and I think that's important for anyone doing this work to understand. You will consistently need to expand your mind, your level of learning and the way that you listen to employees.

I find it interesting and exciting to learn why people resist DEI work. Often, they think that when we're talking about diversity and inclusion we’re talking only about one or two groups. And that’s not accurate.

DEI work includes mental health and wellbeing. More employees are expecting their employer to provide relevant solutions. 

DEI work is also about disabilities and accessibility. We have various laws in the United States about making accommodations for folks with disabilities, but they’re not always followed. And sometimes employees don't disclose disabilities because of fear or shame. There is a lot of work that can be done.

We also have Gen Z entering the workforce with the expectation that their employer cares about the topics related to corporate social responsibility (CSR).

On the opposite end of this, where am I a bit worried? If someone in my role or an ally cannot articulate the why and if we are quick to give up, it almost becomes a battle between us (the DEI leaders) and them (those who resist DEI initiatives). I can see this becoming even more divisive.

In the United States, many colleges and universities are eliminating their DEI programs, and various state laws prohibit talking about certain topics. 

I don't know where the turn happened. It's been happening slowly. When we advocate for fairness and equality for all people, I increasingly hear divisiveness, vitriol and anger. When people cannot get on board, it can become an “us versus them” mentality. It becomes very dangerous, and it is challenging to make progress when you have people on opposite ends of an argument who are not willing to hear the other side.

Listening is a key strategy in any successful DEI initiative.

Jason: Some companies are really successful at building inclusive cultures, and others struggle. What variables create or disrupt success?

Shirley: I try to get as many people from various walks of life involved in DEI work.

If you want an inclusive culture, you have to listen to people. That can be hard, especially for folks who come from marginalized communities and have lived lives where they've been dismissed, discounted or ignored. Listening can also be hard for an individual who does not come from a marginalized community and constantly hears about privilege. In order for a company to be successful with inclusivity, it must be able to listen to both of these sides and say, “I hear what you're saying, and I understand that perspective and that life experience.”

I try to make sure the topics we talk about are applicable to everyone. I'm very proactive and intentional about offering resources for everyone.

We can't satisfy everyone. But if we can do our own due diligence, whether or not we agree with the feedback, we can offer something to groups that feel like they're being excluded. That's what we do at Progress. And that's what I want other companies to be able to do. 

I see DEI work fail when organizations are just checking a box. In 2020, many companies hired diversity and inclusion officers without knowing why. They didn't know what problem they were solving. They saw other companies doing it, so they did it, too. 

They didn't give their new diversity and inclusion leader a staff, a budget, resources or executive support. They just put the person in the role. And if the person did not meet or surpass expectations, they were let go.

I have said this for a couple of years: If you can't answer the why for someone in my role, then you can’t expect them to be successful. And that's where I see some of the failure happening, and it’s what’s causing a lot of burnout. In the past couple of years, I’ve seen DEI leaders at other companies walk away from their jobs because it's not worth their own mental health.

Jason: I want to zoom in on what you said about including so many different perspectives.  I really admire and respect your approach. It may take a bit longer, I'm sure. But you'll get there instead of the burnout feeling that you mentioned some of your colleagues experiencing.

Shirley: It really is about listening and learning why they have that mindset.

You don’t have to always agree with them. But listening helps you understand the why behind it. The why motivates them, and it helps you know how to interact with them. 

I want to be careful that I don't paint a picture that if you just listen to people and talk it out, everything's going to work out. That's not happening. But I think if you're listening to understand, it will help — even if you wind up not agreeing.

Jason: Your point on the packaging is so important. For example, when you’re talking about mental health, the content might be received better if it’s coming from a veteran. There's a connection there that feels easier.

Shirley: I agree. If I said to you, “Hey, you need to support women!” it might not land. But if I repackage it and say, “Do you have a daughter? Imagine a world where someone just discounted your daughter based on her gender. Is that something you want for your daughter?” The repackaging can strike a nerve and make the person listening realize, “No, I don't want that.”  

Then, if I go broader and have the listener think about how this happens to many women every day. And how it's especially worse for women of color, for women with disabilities, for women who are trying to come back into the workforce after taking care of their children or an aging parent, then that person who is listening can think about folks in their lives and you’ve created an aha moment in a way that makes sense for them. Hopefully, from there they can start to see how it's applicable to other people. 

Connections are strengthened by listening and respect.

Jason: What's the makeup of the workforce at Progress?

Shirley: Progress is mostly hybrid, but it depends on the region. We encourage our employees and their managers to work out what schedule is best for the team.

Jason: Is there anything you've recently tried or things you want to experiment with in the future to foster more connection at Progress? How do you help people connect in a human way?

Shirley: The attrition rates are low at Progress because we have a culture of belonging, where people are connected to their teams. It is not uncommon to meet a Progress employee who has been here for 30 years. 

Personally, I love connecting people. As a self-proclaimed introvert, I use listening to my advantage. I pair people together, and then I exit the conversation.

I just came back from a trip to India, and this was my first time in Asia so I was learning about cultural norms. There were people that admitted they would never think to email me with a question or ask for clarification because they see Doctor Shirley Knowles and Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer. I am the most laid back person that you will meet. But that's how people saw me, and I used that knowledge to talk to other leaders about perceptions.

The lessons I learned in Bulgaria and Czechia were very different. You’ve always got to be open to listening, learning, applying the knowledge and going back to those individuals to say, “I heard you. And this is the action plan going forward because I want you all to feel more included.” 

I'd love to continue visiting our offices and getting to know what inspires our Progress employees. 

You can’t solve a problem if you don’t define it first.

Jason: How do you define “modern learning” within an enterprise?

Shirley: Solutioning is a big piece of modern learning. You need to have open dialogue and discussion around particular topics that your organization may be challenged with.

As an organization, you can decide. Do we care that some people don't want to get it? They just want to come in, do their job and leave. They don't want to get involved. Is that okay? Or is it our expectation that folks will get invested in this work? They're going to learn, and they will advocate and be allies for other people. It is up to an organization to really think about these questions as they also brainstorm on what modern learning looks like.

For trainings to be successful, the trainer needs to understand the problem and the details of the specific group. For example, just doing one blanket microaggression or unconscious bias training doesn't always work, because so many have heard the content before. 

Whether building something internally or using an external platform like Electives, we need to always know what we’re solutioning for. That is our North Star.

For example, if there is a team based outside the United States that's trying to work through cultural norms around gender, where are we talking about? The cultural norms in Latin America may be very different from those in Europe, which are very different from Asia. And that's different from the United States. So where, specifically, are we targeting? What are we trying to address? What action items are we giving people that feel manageable for them? 

DEI work matters.

Jason: One final question: What advice or wisdom do you have for your peers?

Shirley: Don't give up. This work matters.

I know fires are popping up. We are in an arduous election year, and things are going to get bumpy. Other world events are happening that are difficult to wrap our heads around. So strap in, but do not give up on this work. You're changing lives. Continue to expand the scope.

One of the primary reasons I've been successful in my role is that I'm expanding the scope. I'm bringing folks to the table, valuing their perspectives and input. That's what helps to change the game.

I know it is hard, but I am very dedicated to the Progress DEI mission, and we are seeing some amazing results. Inclusion and belonging are among the top-rated areas in our employee engagement survey, so that's encouraging to me.

For everyone reading this, let’s connect. It is really good to have a support system of other folks who get it. So find your support system that can keep you encouraged, inspired and moving forward.

About Dr. Shirley J. Knowles

As the Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer at Progress, Dr. Shirley J. Knowles has been a driving force in shaping a culture of inclusivity and equity since June 2021. Her role encompasses leading the company's diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) strategy and programming, drawing from her extensive background in corporate communications and diversity leadership.

Shirley’s tenure at Homesite Insurance as the Diversity and Inclusion Officer marked her as a pivotal leader in DEI, where she was the first to hold this position. At Homesite, she excelled in developing and implementing DEI strategies, leading business resource groups and collaborating with L&D teams to enhance DEI education.

Before her leadership roles in DEI, Shirley managed and supported multi-city community investment programs, social media strategies and corporate communications for companies including Homesite Insurance, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts and the Boston Celtics.

A passionate advocate for self-care and lifelong learning, Shirley holds a DEI in the Workplace certificate from the University of South Florida. She is also a published author, having written on topics such as compliance and ethics in the workplace and the media's portrayal of Michelle Obama.

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